Article: Where was the word of God before 1611?

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Where was the word of God before 1611 and where is it today?

Those who promote the modern bible versions do not believe any Bible is the inspired, infallible, preserved, and pure words of the living God. They tell us "the original Hebrew and Greek" is their final authority, hoping no one will notice that there is no such animal on the face of this earth. They don't have it, have never seen it, and wouldn't recognize it if it fell on their heads.

There are no original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts anywhere. There are several different Hebrew texts plus the conflicting Dead Sea Scrolls. There are over 25 different conflicting Greek texts. The multitude of modern versions, like the NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, depart scores of times from the Hebrew Masoretic texts, and often not in the same places. They are also based on very different Greek texts than that of the King James Bible, though none of them always follows the same Greek text as the others. The NKJV does not always follow the same Greek text as the KJB and the meaning has been radically changed in scores of verses. They often differ among themselves in both text and meaning, and contain several provable theological errors.

We who believe God meant what He said about preserving His words are ridiculed as ignorant, backwater fanatics. We believe God is the sovereign ruler of history and has preserved for us today all His pure words in the King James Bible. God knew what would become of the English language and how the great modern missionary movement of the late 1700's through the 1950's would be carried out by American and English missionaries carrying one Bible and translating it into hundreds of foreign languages and dialects. No Bible in history has been used, honored and hated as much as the King James Bible. The King James Bible was even read out loud from space as the astronauts orbited the moon.

God also knew the great battle concerning the preservation of His words would take place during the times of the falling away from the faith before the glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ. I think it quite possible that we are living in those times now. Never before has the Holy Bible itself been under such fierce attack. The supreme irony is that those who now attack the Bible are those who bear the name of Christians.

They refuse to believe that God has in fact preserved His words in the one Book that has been used and blessed by God a hundred times more than any other. History and the sovereignty of God bear witness that the King James Bible is that one Book, without proven error.

Many Whateverists of the "No Bible is inerrant" crowd ask the following questions: (These are actual quotes from one of the Bible clubs) "Why are you hung up on a translation since no translation is perfect? What about the other translations of the other nations of the world? Do you have an answer for them?

You King James Bible only people limit yourselves to just one language - English. Why are you so afraid to talk about other languages. What about the aboriginals of our nation? Do they have a Bible? If they do, would their translation be just as "perfect" as the KJV? Why or why not? Is your God so narrow-minded and bigoted that He only speaks to 10% or the world--the English part, and consigns 90% of the world to Hell because they cannot read and understand English, particularly Shakespearean English? My God is not that narrow-minded. The Bible says that God so loved the world, not just the KJV understanding crowd. He loves the Crees, the Punjabis, the Hindis, the Maoris, the Inuits, those that speak Urdu and Arabic, etc. But all of these are condemned to Hell because they have not the KJV, right?"

My Response: First of all, God does not condemn people to hell because they are not King James Bible only. God can and does save His people using a multitude of translations in hundreds of foreign languages. The gospel of salvation through the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in any bible version out there, no matter how incompletely or poorly translated it may be. Christ only promised that the gospel would be preached throughout all the world.

Secondly, God never promised that every nation or individual would have a perfect Bible, but He did promise to preserve His pure, complete and 100% true words in a Book somewhere on this earth. "Seek ye out of the Book of the LORD and read..." Isaiah 34:16.

God is under no obligation to give equal light or gifts to all people. There was a period of time when for about 2000 years only one small nation had the true and pure words of God. Psalm 147:19,20 says: "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation; and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD."

God's ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. God will hold us accountable for the light He has been pleased to give us. We who have the preserved and inerrant words of God in the English language of the King James Bible will be held far more accountable for what we have done with this book than those who cannot read English. "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

And thirdly, the people who pose such questions as this individual asks are actually promoting the idea that there is no complete, inerrant and 100% true Bible in ANY language on this earth today. Not the Hebrew or the Greek, nor in any language. This is what they are being taught in most seminaries today. A recent poll shows that 85% of the students in America's largest Evangelical seminary openly admit that they do not believe in the Inerrancy of Scripture, and the percentages are getting higher each year.

God has promised to preserve His words, not in every language or to every people, but in such a way as they would be known by many of God's believing people. The Lord Jesus said: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:35

God testifies through Isaiah in chapter 59:21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever."

"For the LORD is good: his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations." Psalm 100:5

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7

"The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever." 1 Peter 1:25

We who believe the King James Bible to be the inerrant word of God do not place our trust in the King James translators. We do not defend their comments in the Preface, nor their theology, though I agree with much of it. We trust in God alone Who has fulfilled His promises to preserve His inspired words. He just happened to use the believing men of the 1611 Holy Bible as His instruments to continue this preservation.

They were not perfect nor without error in themselves. Just as God used Peter, though he denied the Lord and later separated himself from the Gentile believers and was to be blamed for his actions, (See Galatians 2:12-14) or Paul who was about to offer another blood sacrifice to appease the Jewish law-keepers in Acts 21:26, or John who twice fell down to worship an angel and was rebuked for it (See Rev. 19:10 and 22:8-9). God always uses imperfect vessels for His glory; if He didn't, nothing would ever get done.

Those who promote today's multiple, conflicting versions of God's words think they finally have the question that will stump the Bible believer and finally rob him of his faith in God's inerrant word. They ask us, "Well, where was the pure word of God BEFORE 1611?"

It will greatly enlighten your mind if you ask them the same question. They don't know where it was before 1611 either, or more importantly, where it is now. God's words from the Old Testament were most likely preserved in the Hebrew texts. A good educated guess for the New Testament words would be that God preserved them in the Old Latin Bibles, and then in the Waldensian latinized Bibles till the time of the Reformation. Theodore Beza, whose Greek text was used by the KJB translators, traces the Waldensian believers from around 120 A.D. to the Reformation. They were killed off by the thousands and their Bibles were burned by the Catholic persecutors. The Waldensians believed in the priesthood of every believer and the doctrines of grace. Then God's perfect words for both the Old Testament and the New Testament passed over to what would become the end times universal language - English - , and was simply titled "The Holy Bible", later to be known as the King James Version. That is where they remain today in all their purity.

Regarding the Old Latin, which is not the same thing as the Catholic Vulgate, Agustine and Tertullian both speak of this ancient version as existing since 157-190 A.D.

"The Italic or pre-Waldensian Church produced a version of the New Testament which was translated from the Received Text by the year A.D. 157" Fredrick Henry Scrivner, A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament , 1874

"The Bible translation of the Italic Church came to be known as the Itala translation. The point of all this is that the Itala Bible was translated from the Received Text" Kenyon, Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts , 1859.

Some like Doug Kutilek try to discredit the testimony of the Old Latin bearing witness to the readings found in the KJB but not in versions like the NASB, NIV, RSV, and they cherry-pick a few verses to show divergent readings. There are only about 35 remaining portions or fragments of the Old Latin around today, but these bear ample witness to every one of the disputed verses that are omitted by most modern versions.

I have studied the issue myself and can prove that the following whole verses are included in all, most, or at least some of the Old Latin copies. This information is confirmed by using the Nestle-Aland Greek text critical notes - certainly no friend to the KJB.

The following verses which are omitted in the NIV, NASB, RSV, ESV, etc. are all found in copies of the Old Latin texts. Matthew 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; Luke 9:55.56; 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4; Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7; 28:29; Romans 16:24, and 1 John 5:7.

I have compiled a study of the major disputed readings found in the King James Bible as opposed to the modern versions like the NASB, NIV, ESV, Holman versions, and what the Old Latin texts say. You can see this study at this link on my website:

http://brandplucked.webs.com/oldlatinkjb.htm

We have only a very small portion remaining of all the Bibles and manuscripts that ever existed. Perhaps as little as one one hundredth, so there is no sure way of knowing what the other manuscripts and Bibles said - just as we do not have the "originals" and can't prove what they said. Of those that remain, no two are exactly alike in every detail, but of the approximately 5,000 portions and fragments that we have today, about 95% agree about 99% of the time with the King James Bible readings. The other 5% differs a great deal even among themselves, and it is this 5% that is used in most of today's "bibles".

Even the editors of the UBS Critical Greek text admit that multitudes of Greek manuscripts that once exited are no longer accessible.

Consider this statement by Kurt and Barbara Aland: "INNUMERABLE MANUSCRIPTS WERE DESTROYED during the persecutions and had to be replaced. The result was a widespread scarcity of New Testament manuscripts which became all the more acute when the persecution ceased... There also followed a sudden demand for large numbers of New Testament manuscripts in all provinces of the empire" (Aland, The Text of the New Testament, p. 65)

It is supremely important to have faith in God, both for our salvation and for believing that He has kept and preserved His words throughout every generation as He promised to do. If you cannot believe God has kept His promise to preserve His words, then how can you believe He will keep His promise to preserve your soul?

Ask any modern version promoter if he believes the originals were given by inspiration of God. He will enthusiastically respond in the affirmative. Yes, they were inspired. Then ask him how he knows this to be true. He has never seen them because they don't exist. He believes it by faith. In the same way we too have faith that God both inspired His original words and that He has preserved them through history and today they are found in the King James Bible.

God fulfills His purposes in the fulness of time. He is sovereign in history and His timetable is not the same as mans. In Galatians 4:4 we read: "But when the FULNESS OF THE TIME WAS COME, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

One might well question why some 2000 years ago was the "fulness of time" to send forth the prophesied Saviour when men had been perishing in their sins for hundreds of years previously. Yet God does all things according to His timetable in the fulness of time.

God sent the Lord Jesus Christ at the perfect time in history. When He completed what He came to do, He said, "it is finished" and then the work was complete. What happened through that work still lives on today.

Just as God did with the INCARNATE Word, so He has done with His WRITTEN Word. God's translation work for the English Bible was completed with the King James Bible. It happened in the fulness of time.

The King James Bible came at the perfect time in history, when English was at the perfect stage of development and when the hearts of the people were prepared to accept it. The Reformation and the Puritan movement were in full swing and the nations were soon to witness the greatest, world wide missionary outreach in history.

I believe in the sovereignty of God in history. "For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the governor among the nations." Psalm 22:28. God has set His mark upon many things in this world that reveal His Divine hand at work in history. Why do we use the 7 day week instead of the 10 day week? Why are dates either B.C. (Before Christ) or A.D. (Anno Domini - year of our Lord)? (although the secular world is now trying in vain to change this too to BCE and CE.) England just "happens to be" the one nation from which we measure the true Time (Greenwich time, zero hour) and from which we measure true Position, zero longitude.

Another "happy coincidence" about the King James Bible is that it was sanctioned by a ruling king and his name was James, the English equivalent of the Hebrew Jacob. "Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?" Ecclesiastes 8:4.

In 1611 the English language was spoken by a mere 3% of the world's population, but today English has become the closest thing to a universal language in history. He used the King James Bible to carry His words to the far ends of the earth, where it was translated into hundreds of languages by English and American missionaries for over 300 years. The sun never set on the British empire. It was even taken to space by American astronauts and read from there.

God knew He would use England, its language and the King James Bible to accomplish all these things long before they happened. It is the only Bible God has providentially used in this way. It is the only Bible believed by thousands upon thousands of believers to be the inspired, infallible and 100% true words of God.

When the Word incarnate came to this earth, He did not come fully grown. Jesus Christ went through stages of development until He reached maturity as a man.

Even though Christ was God incarnate and sinless in nature, yet He still had to LEARN and GROW and BE MADE PERFECT in the sense of being made complete and mature.

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; " Hebrews 5:8-9.

And so too it was with the Scriptures in the English language, which is the closest thing to a universal language in today's modern world and where the pure words of God exist. Psalms 12:6-7 say: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, PURIFIED SEVEN TIMES. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them for ever."

What were the 7 purifications of God's words in the English language? I think Dr. Laurance M. Vance has hit upon the answer in his informative article found here, where he sums of the various views. http://www.biblebelievers.com/Vance5.html Mr. Vance concludes: "The information we need is to be found, not in the translators' "The Epistle Dedicatory" or their "The Translators to the Reader," but in the "Rules to be Observed in the Translation of the Bible." These general rules, fifteen in number, were advanced for the guidance of the translators. The first and fourteenth, because they directly relate to the subject at hand, are here given in full: "1. The ordinary Bible read in the Church, commonly called the Bishops Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the Truth of the original will permit." "14. These translations to be used when they agree better with the Text than the Bishops Bible: Tindoll's, Matthews, Coverdale's, Whitchurch's, Geneva." And thus we have our answer. The seven English versions that make the English Bibles up to and including the Authorized Version fit the description in Psalm 12:6 of the words of the Lord being "purified seven times" are Tyndale's, Matthew's, Coverdale's, the Great Bible (printed by Whitechurch), the Geneva Bible, the Bishops' Bible, and the King James Bible."

(Note: I used to think that Wycliffe's Bible of 1395 should be on this list, but it was translated from the Latin and not the Hebrew and Greek texts. The other 7 English Bibles were translated from these two sources, so I think Mr. Vance is probably right and the testimony of the KJB translators themselves supports this view.)

Brother Clyde Harris, another King James Bible believer, had this insightful thought he posted at one of our Which Version club: "The six English Bibles leading up to the purification and completion of Gods word for readers of English (the KJB) is pattern of how God created the earth and the universe and rested on the seventh day. God used six English editions of his word and rested His work on the seventh one, the KJB."

The KJB Holy Bible, God's Holy Book, in English, for life and eternity for his creation; A Holy Book from the Almighty King of Kings, brought forth through a king (King James)...How more appropriately could his purified word have come to be in English, than through the pattern of His creation of all that exists - seven holy steps, seven, Gods perfect number of completion." (end of Clyde Harris quote)

These previous six English Bibles contained all the major disputed verses (35 to 45 entire verses in the New Testament alone) that are omitted by so many of the modern versions that follow very different underlying Greek texts and often reject the inspired Hebrew readings as well. These include such versions as the RV, ASV, RSV, NRSV, NASB, NIV, ESV, NET and Holman Standard.

Among the verses omitted or called into question by these modern Bible of the Month Club contradictory versions which, by the way, NOBODY believes are the inerrant words of God, not even the people who put them out or use them, are: Matthew 12:47; 17:21; 18:11; 21:24; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; 16:9 through 20; Luke 9:55-56; 23:19; John 5:4; 8:1 through 11; Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:6-8; 28:29, Romans 16:24 and 1 John 5:7.

The indebtedness of the King James Bible translators to their predecessors is recognized most clearly in the Preface to the reader where they state in no uncertain terms: "Truly, good Christian reader, we never thought, from the beginning, that we should need to make a new translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one; but TO MAKE A GOOD ONE BETTER, or OUT OF MANY GOOD ONES ONE PRINCIPAL GOOD ONE, NOT JUSTLY TO BE EXCEPTED AGAINST that hath been our endeavour, that our mark."

The King James Translators also wrote: "Nothing is begun and perfected at the same time, and the later thoughts are the thoughts to be the wiser: so if we build upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labors, do endeavor to make better which they left so good...if they were alive would thank us...the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished."

In Matthew 4:4, Jesus says, "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Where was "Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" when Jesus said that? There was no New Testament written. The 66 book canon was far from complete when Jesus spoke these words.

Every word that they needed to live by was preserved for those living at that time. The Old Testament Scriptures in the Hebrew. But every word of God had NOT YET proceeded from the mouth of God.

Was the word of God preserved when Jesus said that? Absolutely! The word of God has always been preserved. It has not always been complete. There is a difference between "preservation" and "completion."

And so it was with the word of God in English before A.D. 1611. It was preserved; it just wasn't complete in English yet. It had to be made perfect just as the Word incarnate had to be made perfect.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." Hebrews 5:8.

And in the fullness of time, the English Bible was made perfect in The Holy Bible, also known as the King James Version.

At one of the Bible clubs I belong to, after referring an inquiring "Reverend" to this article, he wrote back: "Will, Your article really never answered the question. If, as you claim God has "PRESERVED" his perfect words then it must have always existed and you would be able to show it to us through out history. Is this the case or not? If not then you cannot claim preservation. - Dennis"

To which I responded: "Hi Dennis, you and I are approaching the issue of an inspired, inerrant, complete and 100% true Holy Bible from completely different ways. Your position is that no such thing as an inerrant Bible ever existed and certainly does not now exist. So, you draw your conclusions from your premise.

I and many others actually believe in the existence of an infallible Book called the Bible. We believe it exists now and can tell anyone where to get a copy. We also believe the perfect words of God once existed in times past too. We're not totally sure where it was, but most of us generally believe that many Old Latin copies (not the Latin Vulgate) and the Waldensian bibles may well have contained the perfect New Testament. The Hebrew massoretic texts contained the perfect Old Testament, though some of them have become slightly corrupted in a few places over time.

Just because we cannot produce an exact copy of the Old or New Testaments now does not mean that such did not exist. Think about the argument of those on the other side who at least believe in the "originals only" position. They tell us the originals were inspired, but yet they do not have a single copy or even a single word from any of these originals, and cannot prove beyond all doubt what ANY reading is for any single verse.

If you accuse the KJB believer of not being able to back up his position with historical evidence that is 100% verifiable, then doesn't this same argument completely destroy the position of those who are originals only? Most certainly it does.

If push comes to shove I am willing to confess that it just may be that the first time God sovereignly placed both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek, or Latinized translation of the correct Greek texts, into a single Book translated in the end times universal English language, was when He finally brought forth the Authorized King James Bible. Does this sound shocking or scandalous? Well, YOUR side doesn't believe there EVER was a perfect Bible in one volume, much less one now. What evidence do I have for this position? In the sovereignty of God the first time the universal Church began to make their formal confessions about the inspiration and inerrancy of the Holy Bible was AFTER the King James Bible came on the scene and the modern day missionary movement began. For proof of these confessions and their timing see the following article:

http://brandplucked.webs.com/confesskjb.htm

An objection often raised against the King James Bible's perfection and inerrancy asks us to tell them where was the pure word of God before 1611. They tell us that unless we can find a specific Bible version that was perfect before 1611, then we have no consistent claim that the KJB is God's perfect words now. They tell us that our position "blows up". I have addressed that issue here:

http://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbonlyblowup.htm

We at least have what we believe are the written promises of God to preserve His words till heaven and earth pass away, and we believe He has kept His promises. Your side, on the other hand, does not believe that God has in fact kept His pure words in any "book of the LORD" that is found on the earth today. Think about it."

The new version promoter and King James critic has no final authority but his own mind or his favorite scholar to tell him what God probably said. He has no infallible Bible and doesn't want you to have one either. He can't tell you where you can get a copy of God's pure words today, let alone where they were before 1611. "Thus saith the LORD" has been replaced with "Well, how does this version render it?" "It is written" has been replaced with "It should have been written..."

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." Jeremiah 6:16

Will Kinney

Notes From The Internet.

One man who had issues with the belief that the King James Bible is the complete and inerrant words of God wrote:

Brandplucked, I'm sorry but it still feels like you are evading the heart of my question, and still not being clear. Let me be blunt and direct: Do you, or do you not, believe that there was a single "hold in your hand" complete inerrant perfect Bible in the year 1600 A.D.? Yes or no?

To whom I responded: Hi _______. To the best of my understanding at this time I would have to say there there was not a perfect, ENTIRE Bible as we know it today which contained both the New and Old Testaments. It seems that God preserved His perfect words in the majority of the Hebrew texts for the Old Testament, and the New Testament may well have been found among a majority of the Waldensian believers around the time of the Reformation. Can I prove this to your satisfaction? No, not at all. The Waldensians were true believers whom the Catholic church persecuted for hundreds of years and burned their Bible manuscripts. This is history.

Satan is always trying to discredit "The Bible, the words of God, Scripture" or however you wish to name it. Textual corruptions creep in and God begins a process of purification. This is what I believe He did in the English language until we finally get the finished product in the King James Bible. This is right before the world wide missionary movement began. God is in control of history.

Psalms 12:6 says: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

I believe that this verse, like many other Scriptures, has a double fulfillment. It can only be seen in the second way after it has happened, not before. How many prophecies of Christ Himself were not understood until after they had happened? Many if not most of them.

Even at the time of Psalm 12 not all but maybe half of God's words had been penned, yet they are and were pure at that time even though about half of them hadn't even been written yet. Obviously God's words over the centuries had become corrupted through false readings, omissions and additions. If God did not purify them, then there never would have been a perfect Bible.

There is absolutely no need nor promise from God that every nation or every individual would have a perfect, inerrant and complete Bible in their language. For centuries there was only one nation that had the ongoing (it was not at all complete) revelation of the true words of God, and even then there were no printing presses and I seriously doubt most individuals even had a copy for themselves, but God says: "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not done so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 147:19-20

It was not until the 16th to 17th century that the church in the main finally settled on the 66 book Canon. It was only after the King James Bible came out and was well established among English speaking people that the church began to make their formal declarations concerning the inerrancy of Scripture. I and many other Christians believe that we do have a single Book that contains all of God's perfect and inerrant words. It is called the King James Bible.

It seems that your view is that God's true words are STILL scattered "out there somewhere" among the remaining thousands of variant readings in obscure languages that the vast majority of people cannot read, and not one of you can know for sure which ones are right and which are not. You end up being Bible Agnostics, and every individual becomes his own little authority as to what God may or may not have said, and each one differs from everybody else.

Belief in the inerrancy of Scripture is at an all time low and professing Christians read and believe their "bibles" less and less every day.

God Himself said He would send a famine of hearing His words and that there would be a falling away from the faith in the end times. I believe this is happening now. If we see any truth at all and believe His words and His Book, it is all by the grace of God. Not because we are any better, smarter or holier than anyone else.

I sincerely hope that God will give you the faith to believe His Book.

Will Kinney

External Link

• [Where was the word of God before 1611?] by Will Kinney