Revelation 17:8 - Revision history

Nick: /* Minuscule 2814 */

2025-07-06T12:14:54Z

Minuscule 2814

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	====Minuscule 2814====		====Minuscule 2814====
	Minuscule 2814 has ~~kaiper~~ estin. [http://digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvb_mets/viewer.0.6.5.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1751803556965~272&pid=6970294&locale=en&usePid1=true&usePid2=true#0129]		Minuscule 2814 has kaipar estin. [http://digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvb_mets/viewer.0.6.5.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1751803556965~272&pid=6970294&locale=en&usePid1=true&usePid2=true#0129]

	====Manetti====		====Manetti====

Nick: /* Manetti */

2025-07-06T12:12:16Z

Manetti

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	:The wild beast that you saw was, and is not, and is ready to come up from the bottomless pit and go to be destroyed: and those who dwell on earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, shall wonder when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and now whose end has come. (Lamsa)		:The wild beast that you saw was, and is not, and is ready to come up from the bottomless pit and go to be destroyed: and those who dwell on earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, shall wonder when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and now whose end has come. (Lamsa)

			====Minuscule 2814====
			Minuscule 2814 has kaiper estin. [http://digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvb_mets/viewer.0.6.5.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1751803556965~272&pid=6970294&locale=en&usePid1=true&usePid2=true#0129]

	====Manetti====		====Manetti====

Nick: /* CARM */

2025-06-07T11:14:37Z

CARM

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	====CARM====		====CARM====
			An article on CARM has:

	Similarly, the printed Greek texts of the TR on which the KJV is based likewise contain a number of new readings. Note, for example, Revelation 17:8. “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is,” (KJV) versus the reading in modern translations of “…the beast, that he was and is not and will come,” (NASB). The reading in the TR, which is what lies behind the KJV, is “καίπερ ἐστίν” and means “although is” or (as the KJV has it) “yet is.” This was a copying error that occurred during the production of Erasmus’ first edition of the TR in the early 16th century. Erasmus’ only manuscript of Revelation actually contained the words “καὶ παρέσται,” the very same words behind the NASB’s “and will come,” but Erasmus’ copied it wrong. This mistake is understandable. Note the two readings’ similarities if we remove the space between the words:		Similarly, the printed Greek texts of the TR on which the KJV is based likewise contain a number of new readings. Note, for example, Revelation 17:8. “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is,” (KJV) versus the reading in modern translations of “…the beast, that he was and is not and will come,” (NASB). The reading in the TR, which is what lies behind the KJV, is “καίπερ ἐστίν” and means “although is” or (as the KJV has it) “yet is.” This was a copying error that occurred during the production of Erasmus’ first edition of the TR in the early 16th century. Erasmus’ only manuscript of Revelation actually contained the words “καὶ παρέσται,” the very same words behind the NASB’s “and will come,” but Erasmus’ copied it wrong. This mistake is understandable. Note the two readings’ similarities if we remove the space between the words:

Nick: /* Trinitarian Bible Society */

2025-06-07T11:11:20Z

Trinitarian Bible Society

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	The Trinitarian Bible Society, in a pamphlet on the New King James Version says in te footnotes:		The Trinitarian Bible Society, in a pamphlet on the New King James Version says in te footnotes:
	:The other verse in which the spelling error does impact the meaning slightly, and which is a typographical error, is found in Revelation 17.8. The error is found in the words ‘the beast which was, and is not, and yet is’. The words for ‘yet is’ are kaiper estin where the reading should be kai parestai. (The words were broken in the wrong place.) kai parestai is the reading of all the Greek manuscripts. This changes the phrase to read ‘the beast which was, and is not, and is about to be’. [https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.tbsbibles.org/resource/collection/D4DCAF37-AEB6-4CEC-880F-FD229A90560F/An-Examination-of-NKJV-Part-1.pdf An Examination of the New King James Version, Part 1] Page 40		:The other verse in which the spelling error does impact the meaning slightly, and which is a typographical error, is found in Revelation 17.8. The error is found in the words ‘the beast which was, and is not, and yet is’. The words for ‘yet is’ are kaiper estin where the reading should be kai parestai. (The words were broken in the wrong place.) kai parestai is the reading of all the Greek manuscripts. This changes the phrase to read ‘the beast which was, and is not, and is about to be’. [https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.tbsbibles.org/resource/collection/D4DCAF37-AEB6-4CEC-880F-FD229A90560F/An-Examination-of-NKJV-Part-1.pdf An Examination of the New King James Version, Part 1] Page 40

			====CARM====
			Similarly, the printed Greek texts of the TR on which the KJV is based likewise contain a number of new readings. Note, for example, Revelation 17:8. “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is,” (KJV) versus the reading in modern translations of “…the beast, that he was and is not and will come,” (NASB). The reading in the TR, which is what lies behind the KJV, is “καίπερ ἐστίν” and means “although is” or (as the KJV has it) “yet is.” This was a copying error that occurred during the production of Erasmus’ first edition of the TR in the early 16th century. Erasmus’ only manuscript of Revelation actually contained the words “καὶ παρέσται,” the very same words behind the NASB’s “and will come,” but Erasmus’ copied it wrong. This mistake is understandable. Note the two readings’ similarities if we remove the space between the words:

			:καίπερἐστίν
			:καὶπαρέσται

			Though we can understand and forgive Erasmus’ error, it certainly was an error. There is no manuscript support for the reading “καίπερ ἐστίν” prior to Erasmus’ volume; not in the Greek nor in the ancient translations. The only Greek manuscript to contain this reading at all is Minuscule 2049, which is a later 16th-century manuscript from after Erasmus and was, indeed, probably copied from Erasmus’ printed edition. Thus, Erasmus created this muddled reading which in turn made its way into the KJV. Countless such examples could be produced. The point is, there is simply no case to be made that the KJV represents a perfect preservation of an unbroken chain of perfectly preserved texts. That is not how God chose to preserve His word.[https://carm.org/king-james-onlyism/king-james-only-and-the-preservation-of-scripture/]

	====Eberhard Nestle====		====Eberhard Nestle====

Nick: /* External Links */

2025-06-07T11:06:19Z

External Links

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	* [https://www.kjvtoday.net/home/and-yet-is-or-and-shall-come-in-revelation-178?fbclid=IwY2xjawKDZ_dleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFHUXRVRTgzalJSZWFabFBGAR4uj-I_TABEBF89pjgC_mH72zV0dhV1ml0i-Vi6S9JnLJ1U69lvyTkXTFnTjQ_aem_Rievn3E6WmQ9UcLgpR68SQ “And yet is” or “And shall come” in Revelation 17:8?] by [[KJV Today]]		* [https://www.kjvtoday.net/home/and-yet-is-or-and-shall-come-in-revelation-178?fbclid=IwY2xjawKDZ_dleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFHUXRVRTgzalJSZWFabFBGAR4uj-I_TABEBF89pjgC_mH72zV0dhV1ml0i-Vi6S9JnLJ1U69lvyTkXTFnTjQ_aem_Rievn3E6WmQ9UcLgpR68SQ “And yet is” or “And shall come” in Revelation 17:8?] by [[KJV Today]]
	* [https://brandplucked.com/rev178andyetis.htm "the beast that was, and is not, and YET IS"] by [[Will Kinney]]		* [https://brandplucked.com/rev178andyetis.htm "the beast that was, and is not, and YET IS"] by [[Will Kinney]]
			* [https://archive.org/details/gntcollations_apparatuses_byzantine/2.0.0/revelation/revelation_17/page/74/mode/2up Apparatuses of the Greek New Testament]
			by Norman Simon Rodriguez

	{{Donate}}		{{Donate}}

Nick: /* ἐστίν */

2025-06-07T10:45:59Z

ἐστίν

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	:You can either choose to believe “the scholars” who constantly disagree with each other about what should be in “The Bible” or not, or you can choose to believe that the sovereign God of the universe has indeed been faithful to preserve His inspired words through history and that there really does exist a Bible on this earth that IS the complete, inspired, infallible and 100% true words of the living God. All the evidence - internal, historical and spiritual - points to this one Book and one Standard of absolute final written authority as being the only true Holy Bible by which all others are to be measured - the King James Holy Bible.		:You can either choose to believe “the scholars” who constantly disagree with each other about what should be in “The Bible” or not, or you can choose to believe that the sovereign God of the universe has indeed been faithful to preserve His inspired words through history and that there really does exist a Bible on this earth that IS the complete, inspired, infallible and 100% true words of the living God. All the evidence - internal, historical and spiritual - points to this one Book and one Standard of absolute final written authority as being the only true Holy Bible by which all others are to be measured - the King James Holy Bible.

			====Bruce Terry====
			:Revelation 17:8:
			:TEXT: "is going to ascend out of the abyss and is going to destruction"
			:EVIDENCE: A 1611 2053 lat vg syr(ph) cop
			:TRANSLATIONS: ASVn NASVn NEB TEV?
			:RANK: C
			:NOTES: "is going to ascend out of the abyss and to go to destruction"
			:EVIDENCE: S P 046 051 1 94 1006 1854 Maj syr(h)
			:TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASV RSV NASV NIV

			:COMMENTS: There is only one letter's difference between the present indicative (text reading) and the present infinitive (reading in the notes). Since the indicative is not as smooth in this context as the infinitive, it is more likely that copyists changed the indicative to the infinitive than vice versa, although it is possible that the indicative was borrowed from verse 11.[https://bterry.com/tc/lay31rev.htm]

	====ἐστίν====		====ἐστίν====

Nick: /* Minuscule 2049 */

2025-06-06T10:41:49Z

Minuscule 2049

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	:it was, and it is not, and here it is.		:it was, and it is not, and here it is.

	====Minuscule 2049====		====[[Minuscule 2049]]====
	[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>Revelation 17:8 in Minuscule 2049</small>]]		[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>Revelation 17:8 in Minuscule 2049</small>]]
	[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049_καιπερ_εστιν.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>καιπερ εστιν in Minuscule 2049 at Revelation 17:8</small>]]		[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049_καιπερ_εστιν.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>καιπερ εστιν in Minuscule 2049 at Revelation 17:8</small>]]
	Greek New Testament Minuscule 2049 reads καίπερ ἔστιν.		[[Greek New Testament]] [[Minuscule 2049]] reads καίπερ ἔστιν (and yet is).
	[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]		[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]

Nick: /* Minuscule 2049 */

2025-06-06T10:36:34Z

Minuscule 2049

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	[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>Revelation 17:8 in Minuscule 2049</small>]]		[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>Revelation 17:8 in Minuscule 2049</small>]]
	[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049_καιπερ_εστιν.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>καιπερ εστιν in Minuscule 2049 at Revelation 17:8</small>]]		[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049_καιπερ_εστιν.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>καιπερ εστιν in Minuscule 2049 at Revelation 17:8</small>]]
	~~Aldus'~~ Greek New Testament reads καίπερ ~~ἔστι~~.		Greek New Testament Minuscule 2049 reads καίπερ ἔστιν.
	[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]		[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]

Nick at 10:35, 6 June 2025

2025-06-06T10:35:10Z

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	====Minuscule 2049====		====Minuscule 2049====
	[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>~~καὶπερ ἔστι~~ in Minuscule 2049</small>]]		[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>Revelation 17:8 in Minuscule 2049</small>]]
			[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049_καιπερ_εστιν.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>καιπερ εστιν in Minuscule 2049 at Revelation 17:8</small>]]
	Aldus' Greek New Testament reads καίπερ ἔστι.		Aldus' Greek New Testament reads καίπερ ἔστι.
	[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]		[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]

Nick at 10:27, 6 June 2025

2025-06-06T10:27:48Z

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	====Minuscule 2049====		====Minuscule 2049====
			[[Image:revelation_17_8_Minuscule_2049.JPG\|thumb\|right\|250px\|<small>καὶπερ ἔστι in Minuscule 2049</small>]]
			Aldus' Greek New Testament reads καίπερ ἔστι.
	[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]		[https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_2049?fbclid=IwAR0vbCvpDjVayxovsXkJ86w-dDnwJHVr60vZKY6R9Uf4GVkJ6Oat3zm7Umk#]