Hebrews 3:16 - Revision history

Nick at 04:01, 9 November 2024

2024-11-09T04:01:17Z

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	* '''[[Hebrews 3:16 Greek NT: Beza's Textus Receptus (1598)\|ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 3:16]]''' [[5100\|~~Τίνες~~]] [[1063\|γὰρ]] [[191\|ἀκούσαντες]] [[3893\|παρεπίκραναν]], [[235\|ἀλλ']] [[3756\|οὐ]] [[3956\|πάντες]]· [[1831\|ἐξελθόντες]] [[1537\|ἐξ]] [[125\|Αἰγύπτου]] [[1223\|διὰ]] [[3475\|Μωσέως]]. (Checked)		* '''[[Hebrews 3:16 Greek NT: Beza's Textus Receptus (1598)\|ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 3:16]]''' [[5100\|Tινὲς]] [[1063\|γὰρ]] [[191\|ἀκούσαντες]] [[3893\|παρεπίκραναν]], [[235\|ἀλλ']] [[3756\|οὐ]] [[3956\|πάντες]]· [[1831\|ἐξελθόντες]] [[1537\|ἐξ]] [[125\|Αἰγύπτου]] [[1223\|διὰ]] [[3475\|Μωσέως]]. (Checked)

	{{Textus Receptus 1598 Footer}}		{{Textus Receptus 1598 Footer}}

Nick: /* Romainian */

2018-09-29T11:00:33Z

Romainian

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	====[[Romainian]]====		====[[Romainian]]====

	* [[~~2010~~ AD\|~~2010~~]] ~~Cine~~ au ~~fost~~, ~~în adevăr, ceice~~ s'au răzvrătit ~~dupăce auziseră? N'~~au ~~fost oare toţi aceia, cari ieşiseră~~ din Egipt prin Moise? (Biblia Traducerea Fidela în limba româna)		* [[2015 AD\|2015]] Fiindcă unii, după ce au auzit, s-au răzvrătit; însă nu toţi care au ieşit din Egipt, prin Moise (Biblia Traducerea Fidela în limba româna)

	====[[Russian]]====		====[[Russian]]====

Nick: /* New King James Version */

2016-08-12T18:00:40Z

New King James Version

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	:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.		:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.

	:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived.		:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived. [http://www.kjvonly.org/jamesp/jdprice_book_madden.htm]

	====Modern English Version====		====Modern English Version====

Nick: /* Steven Avery */

2016-08-12T18:00:03Z

Steven Avery

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	http://books.google.com/books?id=bGwsKmDfnCoC&pg=PA83		http://books.google.com/books?id=bGwsKmDfnCoC&pg=PA83

	Romans 3:3 - It is to be remarked that "some" in the original signifies a part of the whole, but not necessarily a small part of it. It may be a very great part and majority of the whole, — as in Hebrews iii. 16, where it is said, " Some when they heard provoked, howbeit not all that came out of Egypt with Moses." All did provoke God on that occasion except Joshua and Caleb, and those who were still too young to bear arms. (Chalmers) - (end of notes by Steven Avery)		:Romans 3:3 - It is to be remarked that "some" in the original signifies a part of the whole, but not necessarily a small part of it. It may be a very great part and majority of the whole, — as in Hebrews iii. 16, where it is said, " Some when they heard provoked, howbeit not all that came out of Egypt with Moses." All did provoke God on that occasion except Joshua and Caleb, and those who were still too young to bear arms. (Chalmers) - (end of notes by Steven Avery)

	====Scrivener====		====Scrivener====

Nick: /* =Steven Avery */

2016-08-12T17:59:13Z

=Steven Avery

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	The children, women, elderly men (unable to go to war), and possibly even all of the Levites (they were not numbered for war - Numbers 1:47) who came out of Egypt (therefore numbering more than the fighting men as a whole by estimation) are not included in the group who provoked God and didn't believe Him. (Numbers 14:29, Deuteronomy 2:14) That is why the Hebrews 3:16 is quite accurate to say "some" and then to describe who those "some" were.		The children, women, elderly men (unable to go to war), and possibly even all of the Levites (they were not numbered for war - Numbers 1:47) who came out of Egypt (therefore numbering more than the fighting men as a whole by estimation) are not included in the group who provoked God and didn't believe Him. (Numbers 14:29, Deuteronomy 2:14) That is why the Hebrews 3:16 is quite accurate to say "some" and then to describe who those "some" were.

	====Steven Avery===		====Steven Avery====
	Steven Avery has done a lot of research on this verse and has found the following information.		Steven Avery has done a lot of research on this verse and has found the following information.

Nick: /* Commentary */

2016-08-12T17:58:58Z

Commentary

@@ Line 13: / Line 13: @@
 ==Commentary==
 ====Scrivener====
 Scriveners text adds οἱ before ἐξελθόντες

Nick at 17:51, 12 August 2016

2016-08-12T17:51:26Z

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	The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.		The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.

	[[NKJV]] translator [[James Price]] said:		[[NKJV]] translator [[James Price]] said concerning the critical book review of the NKJV by D. K. Madden :

	“Who Rebelled?”		“Who Rebelled?”

Nick: /* New King James Version */

2016-08-12T17:49:13Z

New King James Version

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:49, 12 August 2016
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	The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.		The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.

			[[NKJV]] translator [[James Price]] said:

			“Who Rebelled?”
			(Hebrews 3:16)
			:Madden condemned the NKJV for rendering this passage “For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?” The issue hinges on the accent mark on the Greek word tines, whether it is on the first syllable (ti) or on the last (nes). With the accent on the first syllable, the word is the interrogative pronoun “who?” as in the NKJV; with it on the last syllable, the word is the indefinite pronoun “some” as in the KJV. Madden knows that the accent marks were not part of the autographic text nor of the earlier copies of the Greek Bible, including the early copies of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition. Thus the accent mark on this word is an interpretive addition to the text that is not part of the original. Madden should also know that most of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition have the accent on the first syllable, not the last. That is the case in the Hodges-Farstad Majority Text, and also in the Robinson-Pierpont text. This is also true in F. H. A. Scrivener’s edition of Stephen’s 1550 text. This means that the majority of Greek speaking churches understood the text the way the NKJV translated it. Likewise, the context favors the interrogative pronoun in this case because this rhetorical question is followed by two others in the succeeding verses.

			:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.

			:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived.

	====Modern English Version====		====Modern English Version====

Nick: /* James Price */

2016-08-12T17:46:49Z

James Price

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	* [[1934 AD\|1934]] Vả, ai là kẻ nghe tiếng Ngài rồi nổi loạn, há chẳng phải những người nhờ Môi-se dẫn ra khỏi xứ Ê-díp-tô sao? (VIET)		* [[1934 AD\|1934]] Vả, ai là kẻ nghe tiếng Ngài rồi nổi loạn, há chẳng phải những người nhờ Môi-se dẫn ra khỏi xứ Ê-díp-tô sao? (VIET)

	~~==James Price==~~

	~~James Price said:~~

	~~“Who Rebelled?”~~
	~~(Hebrews 3:16)~~
	:Madden condemned the NKJV for rendering this passage “For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?” The issue hinges on the accent mark on the Greek word tines, whether it is on the first syllable (ti) or on the last (nes). With the accent on the first syllable, the word is the interrogative pronoun “who?” as in the NKJV; with it on the last syllable, the word is the indefinite pronoun “some” as in the KJV. Madden knows that the accent marks were not part of the autographic text nor of the earlier copies of the Greek Bible, including the early copies of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition. Thus the accent mark on this word is an interpretive addition to the text that is not part of the original. Madden should also know that most of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition have the accent on the first syllable, not the last. That is the case in the Hodges-Farstad Majority Text, and also in the Robinson-Pierpont text. This is also true in F. H. A. Scrivener’s edition of Stephen’s 1550 text. This means that the majority of Greek speaking churches understood the text the way the NKJV translated it. Likewise, the context favors the interrogative pronoun in this case because this rhetorical question is followed by two others in the succeeding verses.

	:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.

	:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived.

	==See Also==		==See Also==

Nick: /* Modern English Version */

2016-08-12T17:45:35Z

Modern English Version

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	====Modern English Version====		====Modern English Version====

	In Hebrews 3:16 the MEV changes the wording of the KJV from a statement to a question:		In Hebrews 3:16 the MEV followes the NKJV and changes the wording of the KJV from a statement to a question:
	:"for who were they who heard and rebelled? Was it not all of those who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?"		:"for who were they who heard and rebelled? Was it not all of those who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?"